#014: Mobile Measurement with Lee Isensee

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[00:00:24] Hello and welcome. The Digital Analytics powering this episode for Team this show we’re excited to talk about something that’s finally arrived in a big way.

[00:00:36] You guessed it mobile and mobile analytics. It’s 2015. And after many years when it was the year of mobile it finally is the year of mobile measurement. This episode we’re drawing a line between the big old computers on your desk in that teeny tiny computers that you’re carrying around with you right now. It’s always. I’m joined by my cohosts Jim Kane and Tim Wilson. Hello michael and hello. Quiet one in the Greater North. I say teeny tiny do you as well sir. Good a teeny tiny. Hello to you as well. Now given that the three of us are not specifically focused in this area and have not as much experience with mobile as others. We went out and we sought out an expert. And so we’re also joined by our special guest Lee eyes and see Lee is the Director of Product Strategy search discovery and he also has spent many years focused on mobile. Previously with local Addicks IBM and Unica welcome to the show.

[00:01:37] Lee thank you for having me guys. And I look forward to whichever mobile guest will be joining us tonight rates.

[00:01:45] Oh we could find a mobile expert now Tim Wilson also wanted to make sure that I added that he was recently a guest on the Million Dollar Insights podcast. And so if you go back and listen to that show a few weeks ago you’ll hear his dulcet tones swearing it up on that podcast. So check that one out.

[00:02:07] I’ll get my coat of that right. So look out each August. I’m

[00:02:11] getting I’m getting paid as much as I am for this one. I make it a million dollars on that one.

[00:02:17] Yeah I’m going with the niche niche pod cast circuit regardless of the title. It’s Monopoly money.

[00:02:24] In a podcast you do a classic. You know it really blank. Tim Wilson moment. No it really grinds my gears. You know it really burns my bridges you know it really was one of those.

[00:02:34] Wow it’s like it’s like you’ve already listened to it. Yes. I don’t want to give it away. But you did swear and also called someone an ignorant slut right. Well you just had to listen to. Okay great.

[00:02:45] Well let’s get back to the topic at hand. It’s a really exciting topic and for me and I want to get everybody’s opinion on this but historically let’s say over the past five years certainly mobile has just taking a bigger and bigger focus for marketers for digital in general specifically around mobile applications and site experiences and things like that. It seemed like we went through a period where there wasn’t necessarily a high demand for strong measurement and analysis of mobile as much as being present in Mobile was kind of the demand of the day. But I feel like that pendulum has started and we’re starting to see a turning of that companies are more interested in finding value and driving analysis through mobile. What are you guys seeing as well.

[00:03:34] I think from early on the question has been how many people are in mobile specifically mobile or the mobile site experience or tougher with mobile apps that if you don’t have an app then it’s really easy to measure how much activity that app has. But I feel like it’s been a number of years since people have been saying we’ve gotten good at Mobile and at some point somebody says well we should look and see how many people are at least having our mobile site experience and also I’ve still got just today was looking at a client that has almost zero like less than 2 percent mobile traffic on their site. It’s a total oddball type site that wouldn’t be normal but I will say that that’s been like the bar is yes we do mobile measurement. How much of our traffic is coming from mobile and that’s about the extent of it.

[00:04:19] You know I think that I’m really thinking about more about mobile and three ways One of them is the em dash or the responsive but the tablet or handset iteration of our web presence. And then I also think about it a little bit differently in terms of the app or kind of like the native we built something on purpose specifically for a phone or tablet experience. And then I was starting to be more and more interested and frankly I’m totally clueless about cool stuff you can only measure and experience as an analyst through a mobile experience like kind of the hyper local things that you can measure really only through someone interacting with a handset. So it’ll be interesting to kind of see where this goes.

[00:05:01] Now tell us how far off our perspective in framing of this whole discussion is.

[00:05:06] Wow I’m so fortunate to be on this podcast with all of you amazing geniuses. I mean Michael Michael said it set us up pretty well which is at first many organizations just wanted to to have a mobile presence right. And I think luckily for the most part that’s been dissolved down to listen. My business is either going to need mobile or we just don’t know what we’re doing in mobile and we’re going to hold off until we can stabilize our business. But for the ones who’ve gone into mobile you know they’ve stumbled through the first steps. You know look at some of the research. Two maybe two and a half years ago 65 percent of companies who had a mobile investment and analytics and marketing were using their Web analytics solutions. It was even as high as 75 percent. When you get to even larger organizations. So people are trying to figure out what was the best way to measure their mobile effort. But they didn’t have a great way to do anything with the data and actually they didn’t even understand what mobile success was.

[00:06:11] And I think over the past couple of years companies have evolved to the point where they understand mobile isn’t about page views it’s not about how many sessions you know what the session duration necessarily is when we look into the specifics of analytics and we look at how mobile first companies are monetizing their business whether it’s through revenue direct revenue or investment.

[00:06:33] It’s really about active users. So setting a new fundamental measurement for this channel but I think the first baby step that folks needed to get into before they figured out what to do with the data.

[00:06:46] So it was really like the tree crawl of evolution of the market active users that have specific I mean if you’re talking about mobile fighting are you still in the world of business pages and hopefully inversions are you know achieving whatever goes into that.

[00:07:03] Yeah so when we when you look at active users within kind of the viewport of a mobile device whether it’s browser or application if you kind of separate this back to desktop web for a minute for people in web analytics you know your typical Web analytics session duration is 30 minutes of an activity your sessions stops and you know you started another one in Mobile if if you’re on a site whether it’s daughter you’re in an app for 30 minutes here that’s a lifetime in the Muslim world right. You know the average life cycle for someone within a session is extremely short nowhere near 30 minutes. And unless it’s a highly addictive application chances are they’re going to only check it once per day maybe even less frequent if it’s news news or media application or Web site. So just the base metrics of what you consider an engaged user have changed dramatically. So going back to the point on users when you look at vendors they price their analytics and marketing products typically on active users less so than page views these days for server calls. If you look at the the ability to uniquely identify users especially on native or hybrid applications versus Web site Amdocs or traditional response of whatever it may be the ability to identify an individual user is so much greater in a native app that it actually gives you a very secure base model to to engage or to understand how your business is doing rather than just how much content is being delivered.

[00:08:43] The easiest example that I like to use is if we were still using page views in the mobile world and you opened up the Facebook application on your phone how many page views do you think you’d have. Scrolling down the front page you’d have one. So in a typical mobile environment or even take away the concept of mobile and look at just from an app perspective most app oriented digital solutions are less about the number of pages and they’re more about how much engagement at the event level is the person having. And the fact that you’re able to identify an individual or more specifically a device in a much easier way on a on a native device. It’s advantageous to go down that measure route rather than page views or something similar.

[00:09:28] So I can use your means number of users who have visited the site in the last x days.

[00:09:34] I mean to put it into native app terms it’s within whatever the timeframe is the launch of an application. If you were to consider it like a Web site it’s essentially how many times has the person had at least one view or an event within the relative timeframe. So within the mobile industry you typically see two key metrics of da user. I mean you sell monthly active users or daily active users. And that’s that’s the summary of how many times has someone opened the application within whatever that timeframe is.

[00:10:08] Yes so there’s there’s two trends that I see dovetailing lethally with mobile in in terms of sort of traditional digital analytics. The first being sort of this concept of the user versus saves. Right. As a as a baseline for measurement or as a basis for measurement and I think as companies and organizations get more comfortable thinking about measuring the web like that transition in Mobile will be smoother and much easier to understand. And the second is that event based structure that you were talking about Lee I think maps well to kind of how the modern web is trending as well because it’s not just the traversal of pages that helps us understand the value or the thing or the measurement of success for someone visiting the site. It’s the interactions and the events that are being measured in the in those intervening steps. We put a lot more emphasis on that versus say to your point a page view which I think maps really well to the concepts that you’re talking about in Mobile. So I think that’s two things that I saw you as you were kind of giving that explanation that I think can give hope to the rest of us as we think about mobile and in a deeper way is hey we can use some of these things to bridge that gap and really think about mobile in those terms.

[00:11:27] Can we back native app you built that as a native app hybrid app as I understand it as you’re basically building a web page but it’s kind of embedded in an app. So it’s got a little more portability. Is that right.

[00:11:40] Yeah hybrid app is essentially a self-contained Web site that allows you to deliver those content via an app store so you can put it out to Google Play you can put it out to iTunes and a majority of the content or at least a reasonable amount to that content is built in JavaScript HDMI 5 all that and then has a native wrapper around it and you see what like phone gap is probably the most popular that that defines Highbury but to your with the hybrid and you still get the access to the device ID so from from your user identification hybrid app have that access. Yeah so because it’s native code you still have access to the identifier for advertisers. So on AOS you got rid of the old device you d d. Are you. Right. And Apple created this new IBSA app. Google has something similar on Android but because it runs in native could locally you still have access to that identifier that allows it to persist across app watches. So short of someone doing a whole bunch of hocus pocus on the device level and clearing that IP out you know it’s the same user. The other really cool thing about native is I’m actually hard pressed to open up my phone and find any application that doesn’t have some level of authentication whether it’s you know instantly authenticate with Google or you know authenticate with Facebook if it’s a game check out game center. Right.

[00:13:12] So aside from just having the access to the ID mobile has done a really good job of solving the problem that the Web has sucked at for so long which is cross-channel joining up data. Having that common key if I have an iPhone and an iPad and I’m using both of them and I hate using my google ID or my Facebook ID or Game Center I now have a means to look at that user as an individual across those two devices rather than knowing that kind of like the Chrome and Safari user browser. I can I can join that back to one user. Secondarily to that device even if they’re different on the iPad and the iPhone which they would be but I now have that one single view so I can deliver much more actually valuable messaging to the users or whether it’s advertising or user experience.

[00:14:03] You don’t you don’t get any sort of Apple ID not the Apple ID itself.

[00:14:07] There is no inherent if I’ve got the same app in its iPad and I and I wrote it on my iPhone and there’s no authentication is there any Apple linking that can happen.

[00:14:19] No. So what you do I mean let’s talk about nerving out for a minute. Very to read. Let’s do it. Let’s break some code.

[00:14:29] So you know if the person is authenticated on iCloud and your application is using iCloud storage using core data I’m able to store a small bit of data on the device that when the person opens it up on the other side and they’ve got iCloud and they open up that data on the other side even if it’s just a hash that that one common key across the two you know is there. Thanks to I know iCloud storage you know Google Account storage although all the cool stuff because devices are kind of inherently cloud based even though we call him native applications they’re always calling kind of these external resources rather frequently. You have the ability to access this information that’s on your servers and that’s a good environment to manage tackiest or change into you.

[00:15:17] Sort of like kind of kind of the tools and what’s out in the marketplace today because there is kind of your earlier point we there sort of need of apps and hybrid apps that are sort of native tools and hybrid tools like the adobes and the Googles of the world have built the DKs around mobile. It is also purpose built in Linux vendors out there like local Linux to you with before other vendors walk through that and get some perspectives on what’s good or bad about those.

[00:15:47] Yeah I mean just at the surface level I was putting together a presentation earlier and I was just kind of doing the layout of the different competitors in the mobile market and I got to the 20th vendor and I’m like OK. The slides getting a little a little sad at this point. But you know mobile and mobile analytics and mobile analytics and marketing.

[00:16:08] Okay. So I was outside of the flurry local Addicks the web analytics platforms like the mobile marketing vendor.

[00:16:16] So you know you start getting into companies like has offers in tunes which allow you to do advertising purchasing. There’s companies like Kahuna which are more on the marketing side of things push oriented companies like Urban Airship who have started to make a move into analytics smaller vendors like swerve and IBM acquisition x Delphi. They’re probably a little bit bigger but you get down to like Distomo crash clitics shrike are crash clitics. How often are apps crashing contagion and web trends is still in there. It’s still pretty busy.

[00:16:51] Okay that’s interesting. It seems like I’m it’s like a da go with your current or. I feel like I know like two or three but it sounds like even craftswomen and some as you said that’s that is a very niche like hey you probably don’t know if you’re at Crash’s because when it crashes you’re probably not collecting the data. Yeah

[00:17:08] I mean the crucial Latics was acquired by Twitter they kind of got tied into that business but still maintain their own thing but they’re not the only company right. There’s companies like criticism that do exactly that. You know you’re putting code out there. I’m like a Web site you put code into the app store. People are running it in the wild. If 3 percent of users experience a crash chances are they are going to go at you in the App Store and ratings and that could be the death of an application. So if you had a way to collect not just how many times a crash happened but what specifically happened what’s the core dump. Where does it relate to my application. Having that in production those tools. I mean they’re lifesavers for some companies.

[00:17:51] Have you ever talked to anyone or done any measurement on an actual mobile game or like a monetized mobile experience. It’s really interesting stuff right. Like it’s like you make all your money in two weeks after launch at something like that.

[00:18:06] So there was I was just an app App swirled or don’t know if it’s plural or not but a world for applications and you know they talked about the kind of quick adoption of applications and the hunt for whales find that less than 1 percent of your users that are willing to cough up that hundred dollars within the first week or two of getting the application because they have the personality that makes sure that they have to be ahead of everyone else. And once you build that application and you get them hooked into your brand you assume the apps just kind of going to die off and your job as app developers to get the next iteration of the app out and you’re using the same layout same concepts as much similarity between your platforms because the experience to the user is very much the same. So they’re familiar with how they could succeed. But they’re starting from scratch and you have the opportunity to go get a couple hundred dollars here and there are another 99 cents. And you see this with companies like Clash of Clans right. Shortly after that came out they put out a new game around essentially the same model except for now instead of being in the forest youre battling on boats and they for the most part use the same exact application and theyre raking in the money again. There is a whole predictive science to wind to release an application. What changes you need to make to it who your target audience should be. What colors it should contain.

[00:19:39] Just around games that market has a ridiculous amount of money invested in it and a lot of times what I have found are companies go out and they build their own solution because they feel as though those calculations are proprietary and they couldn’t even get it from an off the shelf vendor Zynga was kind of famous for that right.

[00:19:58] They built around analytics platform but it does seem like talking about web analytics and solely using the example of a pure play e-commerce site.

[00:20:08] Like that’s seems like a world that while I’m sure they have a lot of analysts who exist in them they’re not about to of analysts that I run into day to day.

[00:20:17] I mean we’re a financial institution we’re a CPG company where a 25 percent of our business is e-commerce where it is mobile.

[00:20:26] Not to shift gears to too much but kind of the more ad from companies that are expecting apt to be a revenue generator in and of itself is more supporting the overall customer relationship.

[00:20:41] You have thoughts on sort of how to approach that that’s where it seems like some of that is it is the exact same questions you’d be asking about your your Web site or any marketing activity is why are we doing this. What is the value to the customer or the prospect that we can then hook into value for us. Is that a fundamentally different question when it comes to any digital investment.

[00:21:07] Just like when social came around. Companies are always somewhat wary of it right. Should we have a Facebook presence. We have a Twitter presence. The cost to entry for mobile is admittedly higher than firing up a Facebook account. So there is some caution by companies entering the market but funnily enough I actually think it varies depending on the size of the organization and their approach to mobile. So I was thinking about this the other day in engaging with prospects and clients and the like over the over the past couple of years mobile even to this day now an enterprise for some reason always feels like it’s deciles skunkworks project in the back corner of this you know massive conglomerate you know office and it’s three dudes doing some awesome sauce but they really can’t talk about it with other folks from an e-commerce was a.

[00:22:03] Yeah that’s the analytics and e-commerce.

[00:22:06] You know 10 years ago and I’ve I feel like we’re seeing similar things happen in the lifecycle right because that’s the exact same thing and it’s sort of like mobile starting to get its chance to walk onto the main stage and a lot of enterprise in those three guys has sort of been reasonably holding down the mobile for for these large companies with no attention and no investment or Selly suddenly like having a big light shone on them. And now people are starting to care and I think you know to your earlier point Tim I think mobile web and mobile applications are going to become much more transactional even than they are today for traditional offerings as opposed to mobile first organizations because of the things like Apple Pay and the way the other kind of payment systems are getting promulgated mobile.

[00:22:55] So I think it’s just going to continue that way. There’s a piece of promulgating Axonal hey you know I’m all about words.

[00:23:03] The less I understand about a topic the bigger the words I use because in 30 fuck yeah promulgated by God.

[00:23:11] I am going to have to change my contact information for you. You are no longer Michael monosyllabic Healthlink again.

[00:23:20] But there’s a whole world of non non transactional from a non financial I mean transactional from a retailer. I can make a purchase of my site there and then there is a guest transactional for my gaming and entertainment. The app is the business to ads that can put in the app or the revenue they can generate from selling the app some some hybrid of that. But there are all these other types of apps right that are out there that aren’t what I would consider in some ways the low hanging fruit. Not that you can’t optimize your e-commerce app but I feel like a lot of people live in the world.

[00:23:57] Hey we have an app and we need to measure it in there and not kind of that can drive the value of an app I think it isn’t just necessarily having one out there because there are plenty of half that are out there because that’s the perception. I agree the more you drink the more you’re making sense to him. It’s not the first time I’ve heard that the value of being able to cross promote your brand I think is is a massive value. Working with media and entertainment and we could probably do it in financial services with us. But you know if if I’m a large television brand and I have kind of disseminated my you know my brand across all of the shows that that the network offers there’s there’s not necessarily a reason for me to focus on just a branded network application. Maybe each television program itself can carry its own weight and allow me to promote like television shows. So if I’m a fan of X Y and Z show and there’s an upscale annuity or advert incremental advertising revenue for each of those shows that I can provide in mobile that’s worth that alone to take the investment and kind of like games duplicate the type of application but just skim it or brand it specific to that to that program. So it is in many cases okay to wash out the brand a little bit. If you’re if you’re able to target it audience in a much more specific way and that’s where retention actually and going all the way back to kind of where we started the ability to understand an individual user become so great. Right.

[00:25:35] If I look at my total data if I try to flatten my business into one application and I do cohort analysis on that we’re likely going to see kind of statistically looking at mobile applications we’re going to see a drop off after about seven to 14 days. But if I can deliver an application that is super unique to my business or to a television show or whatever it may be that cohort analysis can actually extend out over a month and I can start seeing okay if I were to just look at that one application and target people who are on the cusp of dropping out and continue to engage them and either this brand or like brand that’s more incremental opportunity to advertise that user in whatever way advertising means to your business.

[00:26:21] So the most and have a challenge of whether or not that level of that I think is not different from web or sometimes that if the owner of the mobile experience is kind of the we need to do this because it’s the year of mobile for the fifth consecutive year.

[00:26:37] Therefore we must be in Mobile but it hasn’t taken that pause to say look it’s not enough just to be mobile for the sake of being mobile we have to actually map out where what our path the value is and get the analyst play a role in helping with that or is that just hitting the same challenge that analysts have always faced. Is your question do analysts at any value.

[00:27:03] Of the analyst job gets the analyst job is always easy if the owner of whatever the thing they’re being asked to measure and analyze has very clearly articulated goals and outcomes that they’re trying to achieve. I think that one’s not happening very often and mobile is kind of another wrinkle. It’s like a lot of social retail thing. The thing we’re chasing the channel without stopping and thinking through what are we really doing it’s going to contribute value or differentiate us from our competition in a way that is positive. If a marketer can articulate that then the analyst job becomes much much easier if the marketer hasn’t or can’t articulate that thing.

[00:27:51] Does that become the role of the analyst to say I’ve got to figure out what that path is and therefore measure and this baby me as the analyst is this the person marketer of saying it’s not being articulated I’m going to define a measurement plan that has some basis than what value could be and that’s what we’re going to measure to.

[00:28:09] So just sorry to cut you off again Michael but I’m not you know looking at kind of the the roles of folks who typically are engaged in you know the mobile process. If you look at where the analyst plays in kind of that organizational structure there are typically come and gone like these are the three questions I’m going to ask to add value to the organization to help justify this. And it’s you know hey can I provide some insight on just the user behavior. I don’t care if it’s you know Web if it’s mobile it just tell me what actions people are taking because I need to hand that off to my product manager or my marketer or whatever the case may be. Do I still have the ability to segment in and mobile that stuff. Is it based upon the type of users that you an action that they’ve taken. Most analysts are just looking for a way around mobile right now to take any data that they can get and segment it to help maybe find that unique group of people that they can start finding patterns on and tie to kind of that larger business goal and then the last which is looking at the patterns. Are there people that we should be dropping. Are there. You know remember this is an application it’s not a Web site. There are people who had to come find your brand and want to engage with it just to begin with right there. There had to be a vested interest either that that helps to promote your application or something about your brand through word of mouth or app store search.

[00:29:41] They had to come find you rather than kind of generically stumbling upon stumbling upon you like you would with the web. So is there an audience that we should actually stop promoting to stop trying to attract by specific behaviors in the application. Now as far as how they do that it’s very much similar to what they were doing web analytics right funnel management engagement analysis LTV all the normal stops. It’s just what is the end result for the analyst and how they’re going to keep the user or ditch the user. It’s it’s kind of like a sales funnel right the best of the best salespeople don’t know how to just qualify a sale. They also know how to qualify out of a sale.

[00:30:21] There you go. But you can buy the way you can you can buy down ones Cantu with media. I mean so I have to have a off to through and download but is that if you’re chasing downloads to you.

[00:30:34] Is that something the analyst needs to kind of say proceed with caution like you need to maybe have some critical mass depending on the nature of your app but just buying through mobile advertising and enticing people to download your app. You know proceed with caution.

[00:30:49] There’s once again there’s some crazy science and in app purchases allowed folks to justify it like will give the app away. We’ll try to get as many downloads and we’ll chip off one out of every 10 users for that 99 cents. The freemium market is certainly healthy in the just splatter campaign of user adoption. It’s sad. That’s how you end up with people that have like a hundred and eighty five apps on their phone because they you know don’t delete them. And some marketer things start a download is worthwhile. And you know just as valuable if not more than being an active user.

[00:31:24] Yeah I ran out of gas. And that ladies and gentlemen is a first.

[00:31:33] So we’re actually really short on time so I will start our wrapping up process. And it’s amazing because I think this has been a great discussion. We’ve covered some really interesting topics but there’s even more out there like that cool new watch to see all the cool kids wearing. And that factors into this as well. So who wants to wrap up some takeaways as they say.

[00:31:56] I will without coherent thoughts in my mind. Give it a shot. For myself I think there is a lot for analysts to learn. It sounds like what we’ve hit on is yes some of the core fundamentals of analytics stay the same.

[00:32:14] But that goes beyond that’s not web analytics.

[00:32:18] That’s that’s kind of any analytics what it what are you trying to measure what are you trying to do. Sounds like that really is having the head of a marketer and trying to figure out where you fit in the process is the same.

[00:32:31] Don’t get wrapped up in you know counting things that are the wrong things to count.

[00:32:35] On the flip side and I think several times in this I was asking for clarification of definitions and what does this mean and does it matter that mobile is there’s not a what’s the answer to measuring mobile that is almost as ridiculous as saying you know what K.P. should not have for a website without asking what is the what’s the site trying to do where’s the value add that that applies to mobile as well.

[00:33:05] Because mobile does have these other kind of unique aspects within them.

[00:33:10] Talk about sort of the awareness you know local awareness you know proximity type stuff but we did talk about oh you’ve got a better a better hook than a easily the leaderboard cookie to work with from what a user is so there’s. There are nuances in the world of mobile and nuances. Actually the wrong word. There is some kind of fundamentally different ways to sort of shift to thinking and so some things are the same and some other equally important things are very very different. It’s kind of my take away what about you Jim.

[00:33:46] The thing I really took away was that you know it’s the digital analytics power our not the web analytics power hour and this kind of underlines that you know I mean mobile measurement whether it’s an dot or whether it’s an app is really a subset of the overall digital plan.

[00:34:04] I think I would like to have covered a little bit more today on where device level are mobile and tablet level interaction with a brand sits in terms of kind of the engagement with the brand. You know we’ve done done some work before about you know you interact with the mobile and this and you interact with the website and you interact with the store. You know that’s kind of where we’re going.

[00:34:27] I think as a discipline episode 15 omni channel with Kevin Hillstrom in this week’s episode of Jim gets cut off before he goes to get another beer. But you know I really just think this is an interesting subset of omni channel it would be interesting to have a chat where we start connecting all those dots. And I think my last thing is that there’s definitely some good cross pollination between best practices from beta grippy I learned to stuff when you guys got that mobile expert on. It sounds like he or she is going to be highly valuable this has been an awesome precession for when we get somebody who actually has a clue.

[00:35:04] And opinions taking place. For you Lee having been entrenched in Mobile for for such a long time it’s interesting to hear from folks who are starting to get more than just their Panchito toe into mobile and they’re having to go through the same transition that clients are going through on a you know changing their their verbiage changing the way that they go to the business and talk about you know this is the SEC this is the success of this aspect of our business and where they’re going to need money and actually the different types of people and an organization that they’ve even engage with an analyst in a market are working side by side where as in the mobile world it’s you know the analyst working with the product manager side inside there is there’s a lot of a lot of cool things that are similar but the differences I think are enough to warrant you know kind of that niche market for both vendors and consultants their product managers come in with mis conceptions about analytics and what’s needed and what’s possible are the prior managers come in with more focus and maybe relevance then marketers sometimes can.

[00:36:25] Here’s where Tim inadvertently marketers.

[00:36:29] So this is me kicking myself in my teeth. Product managers are like and this is not going to be good product managers like developers who are open to new ideas. As analysts working with marketers. They’re helping them justify you know spend and budget in other areas good product management team should want to hear about ways to improve their product and get the information straight from the user and they don’t care if it’s good or bad. Facts are facts there are typically detailed oriented type people whereas a marketer wants to know. We have this information. What should I do different. A product manager has the ability to make that change and ask for feedback on this is what I did. What do people think.

[00:37:17] Me. And I think for me as I think about this area of digital analytics it’s in some ways reassuring and in other ways it’s you know there’s a big hill to climb and I think the reassuring aspect is that from a strategic perspective mobile like a Web site is a system to optimize.

[00:37:37] And if you figure out the important things that matter for the success of that application or that experience you can you have the ability to get metrics in place that will allow you to do that. So I think that’s generally encouraging and I think on the flip side of that is as companies get more focused on this they’re certainly expanding demand for you know knowledge and expertise in this field. And so as digital analysts we have another amazing opportunity to expand into this space. And so that’s that’s awesome. And I don’t think digital analytics people have ever shrunk at learning a new challenge your task so that’s good. Well as you’ve listened to the show today I’m sure you’ve had ideas thoughts questions and we would love to hear from you. Please send us a message on our Facebook page or on Twitter or it’s great. We’re seeing more and more people can join us on that measure slack group jump in on that.

[00:38:38] It take to get to. We have people ask us to add them and actually there are a couple of people on the podcast now who can do that. But there is a google form that we slash and measure slack with the A M S capitalized. So that is the way when Michael implores you to join the messenger slack that you can go and fill in that form and you will get added.

[00:39:01] So yeah please do join the conversation. There is so much more to discuss on this topic and as always we don’t typically get to the end of a KOMPAK. So thank you for listening.

[00:39:13] It’s been great to have eyes and see. Join us today. Thank you Lee. And as always for my fellow hosts Jim Kane Tim Wilson Michael Healthlink saying steel later.

[00:39:29] Thanks for listening. And don’t forget to join the conversation on Facebook. We welcome your comments and questions. Facebook dot com slash don’t now now all that I don’t know on Twitter.

[00:39:43] Smart guys want to fit in. So they’ve made off a term called analytic analytics don’t work.

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